Thảo luận Thể loại:Người Việt gốc Hoa

gốc≠Dân tộc

I think we should limit Vietnamese people with Chinese ancestry to about 1 or 2 generations, otherwise if you go back far enough virtually everyone in Vietnam will have Chinese ancestry. See, for example, Hồ Quý Ly, Nhà Trần, etc. NHD (thảo luận) 17:45, ngày 9 tháng 5 năm 2011 (UTC)

Hi there, thanks for your inputs. Just my afterthoughts, I think it would not be wise to limit to within 1-2 generations. In the case of other readers who have at least a certain degree of familiarity with the Chinese in VN, I am sure they would feel that people like Trinh Cong Son would qualify. In my opinion, if the category were to state as "Nguoi Hoa o Vietnam" (ie: Ethnic Chinese from Vietnam), your suggestion would be appropriate. But in the case of Nguoi Viet goc Hoa (ie Vietnamese of Chinese ancestry), I feel that it can also apply to people who are considered Nguoi Kinh but with distant Chinese ancestry. The qualifer here is the "ancestry" rather than the part of ethnic identity per se. Topic wise, I do not find any mistake with this). If the category were to be renamed to a more specific group, then I would feel your argument would hold more water. Furthermore, is there any "boundary" to limit the Vietnamese of Chinese ancestry back to the Qing, Ming or even further back?

That being said, I do agree that this can apply to cases only if there are substantiated proof (in the form of resources) to state their Chinese ancestry.

In the light of this, I hope you can reconsider your edit for Trinh CS. I would also be happy to listen to your further inputs, if you feel so otherwise. Mr Tan (thảo luận) 16:24, ngày 10 tháng 5 năm 2011 (UTC)

My concern with not putting a limit is that the category would become useless because everyone will belong there. After 3 generations, I don't think people are considered "Hoa" anymore. I've never heard of Trinh Cong Son being considered as a Hoa even if his Chinese ancestry is common knowledge, much like the Tran Dynasty isn't considered a "Chinese dynasty" or Ho Quy Ly a "Chinese usurper". They're Vietnamese, even if their ancestors came from China. NHD (thảo luận) 16:37, ngày 10 tháng 5 năm 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your interpretation of the ethnic identity part. Indeed, descendants of ethnic Chinese who have settled in Vietnam would be identified as ethnic Vietnamese after 3 or more generations, as resources have explained. But the key point is that if my Vietnamese is correct, "Nguoi Viet goc Hoa" means Vietnamese of Chinese ancestry, and can also encompass people who identify themselves as Vietnamese but are Chinese as well? Note the difference, ancestry and ethnicity or ethnic identity are two similar but seperate concepts.

To quote a few examples, in Malaysia, en:Mahathir Mohamad has an Indian paternal grandfather but by all accounts is identified as a Malay by ethnic identity. That does not disqualify him to be classified under en:Category:Malaysians of Indian descent? Another example, en:Alex Sink, has Thai ancestry several generations removed but is also similarly classified as en:Category:Americans of Thai descent. They do not identify themselves as Indian and Thai respectively, but as a Malay and White American, although the ancestry would always be there. Unless you are saying that the "goc" is ethnicity and not ancestry, then I am mistaken. But resources that I have come across everywhere mentioned otherwise. Mr Tan (thảo luận) 16:49, ngày 10 tháng 5 năm 2011 (UTC)

It's true that "goc" does imply ancestry and not ethnicity, but in the Vietnamese Wikipedia the "nguoi Viet goc Hoa" category has long been used for people who are more readily identified as having Chinese ancestors. If we expand this definition to however far back as we want, it would become useless because everyone will belong there. If you feel strongly about putting TCS back in, go ahead, but to me it looks inconsistent. NHD (thảo luận) 17:20, ngày 10 tháng 5 năm 2011 (UTC)

Just to add on, in the case of Trịnh Công Sơn, his Chinese ancestry has been widely discussed and acknowledged, for example in this article: http://www.vanchuongviet.org/vietnamese/tulieu_tacpham.asp?TPID=7413&LOAIID=17&TGID=869

That being said, on the issue of identification, I would be inclined to think that individuals with known Chinese ancestry should be eligible to be classified under this category. To be specific, people should be goc Người Hán and usually have ancestors from the southern Chinese provinces like Quảng Đông and Phúc Kiến, how many generations should not be an issue since it is the "goc", and not "Dan toc". Mr Tan (thảo luận) 16:06, ngày 11 tháng 5 năm 2011 (UTC)